|
|
Post by oliviamccubbins on Nov 16, 2015 22:41:07 GMT
We discussed in class today the idea of dependency and defining yourself in a healthy way. Bertha and Jane both deal with there self-identity in very different ways. Bertha doesn't know exactly what she wants and therefore does not know exactly who she is. She defines herself against the men in her life such as Mr. Rochester. When Bertha learns that Rochester doesn't love her she begins to despair and that despair turns to hopelessness. This then drives her to madness. On the other hand, Jane has a sharp sense of self and while she desires acceptance she doesn't need it. Instead Jane finds hope in her faith and then when Rochester treats her poorly she can find her hope in her faith. I was wondering if other people had any thoughts on this?
|
|
|
|
Post by reshmabelur on Nov 17, 2015 1:12:35 GMT
Olivia, this is a very compelling topic. I think it's interesting how Jane and Antoinette's different responses to Rochester guide them on their separate paths. Although he puts both women in a position of inferiority, only Jane is able to escape this and reassert her equality. Although each woman had similar defining moments in their lives, their reactions to Rochester are vastly different. In class, the topic of beauty versus plainness arose during the symposiums. Do you think this could have played a role in their different personalities?
|
|
|
|
Post by emsykes on Nov 17, 2015 16:54:34 GMT
Reshma, I think you bring up a very interesting point. While beauty and plainess are typically opposites, I believe that both Jane and Bertha possess both of these qualities at some point in the novel. Bertha was obviously beautiful because Rochester was physically attracted to her off the bat in Jamaica. However, when Bertha is trapped in the attic at Rochester's manor, we start to see her affiliated with the gothic qualities of the house. To me, Bertha lost her beauty in her exhile and now she displays plainness. On the other hand, Jane started off as a plain person. She was never described as being physically beautiful, and she generally had a negative attitude towards her childhood, so that made even her personality ugly. However, through her maturation process, she learned a lot about herself and her world. By the end of the novel, she accepts Rochester as her only love despite his blindness. I believe that that displays Janes beauty. Altogether, both women posses beauty and plainess. Do you think we are able to make the assumption that all women possess both of these qualities?
|
|
|
|
Post by anewman98 on Nov 18, 2015 1:41:13 GMT
Reshma, I like how you talk about Antoinette and Jane's differing reactions to Rochester. You also talked about their "defining moments". When you analyze these women in this way, they appear possess qualities of Coming of Age. I think their "defining moments" go hand in hand with their reactions to Rochester.
Antoinette and Jane start out on the same path, seeking acceptance and love. Jane finds this acceptance in herself long before she meets Rochester. Her lonely childhood allows her to grow into an independent woman who is educated and strong in her morals (related to both gender and religion). Developing this independence before meeting Rochester is her "defining moment", and lets her take on their relationship in an adult-like manor where she makes decisions. On the other hand, Antoinette meets Rochester at a time in her life when she has no self identity. She is seeking the same acceptance and love as Jane, but she relies on Rochester to deliver it to her. She is let down, for he says outright that he does not love her. This occurs before she has a "defining moment" and stops her from ever having one. She remains in a liminal state while physically being an adult, causing her to go insane.
Do you think if Jane met Rochester before developing independence, she would have gone mad too? Or the reverse - if Antoinette met Rochester after developing independence, would their relationship be successful?
|
|
amyyu
New Member
Posts: 20 
|
Post by amyyu on Nov 19, 2015 22:53:33 GMT
Alli-- as a response to your first question, independence was not something that prevented Jane from going insane and we actually see this throughout the novel. First, I should start off by saying that I don't believe Jane fully achieved independence when she met Rochester. In fact, at that time Jane was still partially submissive and exhibited some of the pure and fragile characteristics of the typical woman in the nineteenth-century. You don't really see Jane display any signs of independence until later in the novel when she denies Rochester of his one wish--marriage. While at Thornfield, Jane mostly stayed within the passive female role but always reminded herself of what she really wanted and filtered out the wishes and desires of others. Even though Jane didn't fully become independent at Thornfield, she was someone who had a strong sense of self-identity, something that was usually hard for women to find if they stayed in passivity for too long. Jane used her memories of Helen Burns and Miss Temple as constant reminders to persevere and stay true to herself. Because of these two very influential people in her life, Jane was able to avoid being driven to insanity (like Bertha) despite the fact that she had not reached complete independence yet.
If Antoinette had met Rochester after developing independence, then she probably wouldn't have gone insane. One of the main reasons why Antoinette (Bertha) went mad was because she was dependent on Rochester, someone who neglected her and failed to treat her as an equal in their marriage. Instead, Rochester denied her of his affection and only communicated with her through sex. Their marriage was not based off of love, but rather a means for Rochester to achieve a higher social status and a way for Bertha's family to get rid of her. This contributed to Bertha's insanity because her world revolved around Rochester and looked towards him for a sense of identity. Rochester simply treated her as an object and refused to get to know her, which caused Bertha to face many struggles regarding self-identity and what she needed in order to be happy. However, if Bertha had achieved independence after meeting Rochester, the story would be completely different because she would have already developed her own sense of identity and know exactly what she wanted in life. Bertha wouldn't need to constantly try to pursue a true relationship based off of love with a man who could care less. Also, under the scenario that Bertha did become an independent woman, she wouldn't have married him because she would be able to see that their marriage is just a scheme for Rochester to inherit more money and elevate his status in society.
|
|
|
|
Post by reshmabelur on Nov 19, 2015 23:05:48 GMT
Alli, that is a very thought provoking question! I think Amy had a very profound response although I do disagree with her in some respects. Jane does display independence when she is under Rochester's roof. She does not accept his lavish gifts, convinces him to take Adele along while they shopped, and saves his life by discovering the fire. She definitely has achieved some independence as she is no longer in her childhood state at Thornfield. She is infatuated with Rochester, but this makes it all the more liberating when she leaves him. Had Antoinette found Rochester when she was more firm in her morals, she likely would have not succumbed to his subjugation. I think your reasoning for her this is very strong! You brought up some really interesting ideas!
|
|
