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Post by jesswang on Nov 18, 2015 22:17:52 GMT
The most extreme 19th century ideal was the glorification of the sickly, dying, or dead female. As a feminist, this ideal disturbs me because it is essentially saying that women are only useful after they have died or fallen ill. It's as if women are just pretty things to be mourned. They do not even seem human from this viewpoint; they are mere objects whose only duties in the world are to reproduce and act as talking points for men once they have died. This disturbing ideal places women so low on society's ladder that they only make a difference once they're dead.
On the other hand, the glorification of the dead woman can also be seen as extreme praise for women. They are so highly thought of that they seem supernatural: angels sent straight from heaven. From this viewpoint, women are symbols of the religious morals needed to keep men grounded to earth. They are so important that they live on as angels even after their mortal selves die. This opposing viewpoint could even be seen as radical feminism.
It's fascinating how one ideal can be seen from two completely different lights. Which viewpoint do you think applies to Jane, Bertha, and the times in which they lived? Could it be a little bit of both?
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Post by anewman98 on Nov 18, 2015 22:45:25 GMT
I think these viewpoints apply to Bertha and Jane, but are reacted upon in the opposite light. For example, Jane is the perfect picture of someone who isn't "ladylike". She is plain and passionate, and certainly not sickly when she is with Rochester. However, she is praised by Rochester in a way that men were "supposed" to praise the unpassionate and dying. It is ironic that he does not praise Bertha like this, because she actually is dying. Maybe her unladylike characteristics (like going insane) cause her to be denied of this glorification.
But, we can see the positive glorification of death in Helen Burns. She is viewed more or less as an angelic figure to Jane after she dies. She enlightens Jane, and her death is praised in a sense because of it.
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amyyu
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Post by amyyu on Nov 19, 2015 3:26:44 GMT
Alli, I agree with what you mentioned about Helen Burns' death being glorified. After her death, Helen "lives on as an angel" because of the heavy impact she had on Jane that permanently affected Jane's perceptions on how to respond to society's demands. In a sense, Helen continued to live within Jane even after she died because she served as a constant reminder for Jane to not stay silent. Helen remained silent when Miss Scatcherd would scold repeatedly for even the smallest errors. She readily accepted the horrible treatment that she received at Lowood and remained submissive to her superiors. Because of this, right before she dies, Helen tells Jane that she embraces death because she desperately wishes to be released into heaven and leave the world forever. Helen says this because she knows that she will suffer more by always having to suppress her emotions and inner desires and remaining under the passive female role for the rest of her life. Helen's death reminds Jane to speak up for herself and let her desires determine her path rather than those of others-- this is seen when Jane finally decides to leave Rochester in order to escape a relationship with no equality and find the independence that she had always wanted.
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Post by matthewzhang on Nov 20, 2015 1:26:20 GMT
Amy, I definitely agree with your point of Jane gaining her voice in society after Helen Burn's death. There are many examples of this key point, but I think another example of this is Jane's forgiveness towards Mrs. Reed. This sign of forgiveness is both surprising and strong. It is surprising because no one expects Jane to forgive all the horrible things Mrs. Reed has done to Jane: the red room, her cousin's mistreatment, etc. But this forgiveness is also conveying a strong message that Jane wishes to express to Mrs. Reed. Jane wants to let her know that all the terrible things she has done to her means nothing, in fact those times of trouble have strengthened Jane. Jane is able to get a grasp of the cruelties of the world and is able to adapt and adjust her approaches to those conflicts.
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Post by jesswang on Nov 20, 2015 23:22:59 GMT
Alli, I never even thought to compare this ideal to Helen Burns' death but it fits perfectly. Neither viewpoint seems to fit Bertha or Jane well, but the glorification of Helen's death fits with the positivity of the 2nd viewpoint. Helen is almost an ethereal creature who is worshipped as an angelic figure in Jane's life; do you think this could be seen as Jane falling victim to this ideal herself, as she is the one glorifying a fellow woman's death? And does that necessarily have to be a bad thing?
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Post by jesswang on Nov 20, 2015 23:38:21 GMT
Amy and Matt, I love how you talked about the glorification of Helen's death as a positive impact on Jane's life. This shows that not only negative things can come out of this extreme ideal. From speaking up for herself to learning forgiveness, Jane learned many life lessons from glorifying Helen's death.
Relating to the overall meaning of the feminist criticism article, do you think these lessons helped Jane escape from the women's "sphere" of ideals? How?
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pavansuresh
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I am Pavan the Skeptical Elf.
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Post by pavansuresh on Nov 20, 2015 23:48:04 GMT
Jess, I think that these life lessons definitely helped Jane escape from the "women's sphere." Jane learns much from Helen, and not all of it is being like her. At first, it seems that Helen is teaching Jane a lot about the world, and that Jane is becoming more like Helen. Helen is a perfect example of the "woman's sphere" and "angel", being totally conforming to society and not sticking up for herself like Jane does later. Because of her "teachings", Jane becomes more temperate, but when Helen dies, Jane gravitates away from that ideal. I think that if Helen had lived, Jane would have kept learning from her and eventually aligned her views entirely with Helen, causing no character development in Jane and forestalling the entire plot.
Helen serves as not only the "angel," but as a Christ figure: her death allows Jane to move on with her life.
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Post by oliviamccubbins on Nov 21, 2015 1:22:20 GMT
I agree with the idea that Helen has a positive impact on Jane's life. I feel as if we have discussed what Pavan has brought up several times so I would like to refer back to the original post. I too am disturbed about the glorification of sickly women. I have another angle though, it was a way to give them power. Not as sickly but in death. Their deaths have effects on those who love them and this advances the plot. In another way if we look at them choosing to die on their terms or coming to an acceptance of death we see unfathomable courage. Look at Helen who faces death down but is not afraid. To me this is courage that I cannot understand.
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Post by jesswang on Nov 21, 2015 16:00:23 GMT
Olivia, I definitely agree that death can equal power for certain women. From Antigone in Socrates' Theban Plays to Bertha and Helen in Jane Eyre, we have seen women use their deaths to affect the ones around them in countless pieces of literature. These women have accepted that they will inherently be seen as inferior beings in society, and they know that the only way they can make a profound impact is if they utilize the power their deaths can yield. But, do you think this really counts as power if the women aren't alive to witness the consequences of their deaths?
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Post by anewman98 on Nov 21, 2015 18:05:20 GMT
I have another angle though, it was a way to give them power. Not as sickly but in death. Their deaths have effects on those who love them and this advances the plot. In another way if we look at them choosing to die on their terms or coming to an acceptance of death we see unfathomable courage. Olivia, this is a great viewpoint. Just because people in the 1800s glorified sickly women doesn't mean we have to. Looking at them as powerful allows us to see their courage, like you pointed out, and acknowledge their positive impacts even after death (also, it is much less depressing to think about). Helen dies courageously and inspires Jane to live the rest of her life with kindness. In this way, can view Helen as a Christ figure? |
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Post by sfarmand on Nov 21, 2015 20:49:25 GMT
Olivia- I like the points you made about courage. I think that the romanticization of women's death portrays a stronger, more independent image of women, although it can also be interpreted as glamorizing the mourning process, taking away from the process of death as a whole. Coming from a different angle, I think that there is another issue with this glorification, other than it demeaning the lives of women: idolatry. Now, the relation of idolatry to glorification of death may, at first, seem absurd, but idolatry, in a loose sense, is not uncommon for those who have been plunged into a new environment with only a sole agreeable individual. This creates a sense of hero-worship, especially because Helen seems to have so much more knowledge than Jane. Echoing what Pavan said, had Helen not died, Jane would have adopted all of Helen's views in an act of blind idolatry.
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