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Post by rdeorio3 on Nov 19, 2015 2:34:29 GMT
I noticed throughout the entire first article the author constantly mentioned selflessness or self-abnegation (which from the divergent series I know is a synonym for selflessness). It seems as though the author subtly stresses the importance of how women of the Victorian Age needed to be selfless. They had to be able to give anything or do anything for their husbands. In the article there is an excerpt of a poem that expresses the selflessness of women and even pushes it to the more extreme of self-sacrifice and self-immolation. The way it is portrayed in the books and poems mentioned in the article it shows how its one of the critical characteristics of the "angel" end of the spectrum of women from that age. Then on the other side of the spectrum, if a woman decided to do something for herself it would lead to her ultimate downfall. In the article it even gives examples of doubles and the downfall of the self-assertion kind of woman and the rise of the woman with self-abnegation.
Oddly enough, if you look at the selflessness of Jane and Bertha, Jane's actions are, for the most part, for her benefit. For example, leaving Lowood for a better job or leaving Thornfield because she knew she couldn't be with Rochester. While Bertha seemed to do anything Rochester asked her to do but still ultimately fell to the end of the spectrum and became a madwoman.
You could also look at Jane and Bertha's on more of a broader scale and see that Jane left Thornfield ultimately for Rochester because she knew he wouldn't be happy with her as mistress and put herself through all the despair and suffering of being homeless for him. As for Betha, you could say that she never truly sacrfices herself for the marriage and only does what is necessary of her.
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sko
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Post by sko on Nov 19, 2015 3:13:18 GMT
Oddly enough, if you look at the selflessness of Jane and Bertha, Jane's actions are, for the most part, for her benefit. For example, leaving Lowood for a better job or leaving Thornfield because she knew she couldn't be with Rochester. While Bertha seemed to do anything Rochester asked her to do but still ultimately fell to the end of the spectrum and became a madwoman. You could also look at Jane and Bertha's on more of a broader scale and see that Jane left Thornfield ultimately for Rochester because she knew he wouldn't be happy with her as mistress and put herself through all the despair and suffering of being homeless for him. As for Betha, you could say that she never truly sacrfices herself for the marriage and only does what is necessary of her. This is really interesting! Now that you mention it, it does seem fairly obvious that Jane does everything for herself. I believe this is because she has such a strong sense of identity. Bertha seems to be selfless, but I think it's because she doesn't have her religion, morals, and self-identity to fall back on as Jane does. It's also interesting to look on the other side to see Jane sacrificing something for Rochester. In my opinion, I feel like Jane is more selfish than Bertha, but in a way where she is true to her morals. If she had been selfless, kind of like Bertha, Jane might have ended up exactly where Bertha was. I think this is what makes the story so interesting: Jane fights the expectations of the 19th century woman, but she doesn't become a "fallen woman". |
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Post by jordanhilker on Nov 19, 2015 21:36:58 GMT
I thought that your idea of adding a poll was very creative! I voted that Bertha was more selfless because she never did anything for herself. She followed what other people told her to do and this definitely contributed to her become crazy. Jane however did many things for herself. Like you said, Jane leaves the numerous locations for her benefit. Because SHE was unhappy. She didn't really think about the thoughts of others while leaving.
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Post by crandallethan on Nov 20, 2015 2:05:46 GMT
I'm all for the idea of controversial polls! I believe as well Jane is more selfish, because it was required of her coming of age. If she conceded to the Reeds she may have never overcame their harshness. If Jane didn't leave Lowood she would be stuck and gain no further knowledge outside of her location. The other locations create the same roadblocks where only the selfish can survive.This shows that being selfish doesn't make you a "monster" but only a survivor just like anyone reading the story. Ryan bringing up this topic makes it clear that women and men are very much the same by Jane doing what would be seen as a "male" thing to do. She even counters the opposition's thoughts by creating scenarios where the male needs the women. She does this with Rochester and St.John. As the book concludes Rochester is injured,blind, and depressed. He only becomes whole again after Jane ( who has already found herself) comes back and marries
Rochester. We also see St.John wanting Jane's hand in marriage,because he wanted to fulfill his religious duties. As a super religious character Jane marrying him,in a way, completes him as well.
To wrap up, Jane is selfish because that is what was required of her and reveals a trait that make women and men one in the same. On the flip side, Men can be dependent, so can women which is shown in Jane's relationship with Rochester and St.John.
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kchen
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Post by kchen on Nov 21, 2015 2:23:56 GMT
I'm not sure if either Jane or Bertha is particularly selfless. Although Bertha isn't selfish, that does not make her selfless. It could be argued that, in a way, she is selfless because she gives herself up for marriage to Rochester. However, she has no sense of self-identity. On the other hand, it is clear that Jane exhibits selfishness. I feel that the word “selfish” has a negative connotation, but in Jane’s case, selfishness is necessary for her personal growth. Being selfish is part of Jane’s coming of age. She starts off with nothing – no family, no money – so she has to prioritize herself in order to find people who love her and gain financial independence.
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